Leo Bloom. The Waco Kid. Willy Wonka. These are just a few of the roles played by Gene Wilder, the subject of a new documentary celebrating the life and work of the beloved actor.
But if it weren’t for the gumption of one Mel Brooks, he may have never had that amazing career. Brooks cast Wilder as the anxious accountant Leo Bloom in his feature directorial debut, 1967’s “The Producers.” He met Wilder through his then-girlfriend, Anne Bancroft, who was performing with Wilder in a stage adaptation of “Mother Courage,” and thought he would be great for the part.
Not everyone agreed, however. According to Brooks, after seeing the first round of dailies, financier and distributor Joe Levine told the director to find a different actor for Bloom – someone who “looks like a leading man.” The way Brooks tells it, he told Levine sure thing, you got it – and then did the exact opposite, keeping Wilder on the film. And if you’ve ever seen “The Producers,” I’m sure you’d agree he made the right decision.
“Remembering Gene Wilder” is full of fun anecdotes like this one and features interviews with Brooks, Carol Kane, Alan Alda, and many other screen legends. It not only delves into what made Wilder such a special performer, but what drew people to him in his personal life as well. The film gives space to his partnerships with those such as Brooks and Richard Pryor, his tragic marriage to comedian Gilda Radnor, his relationship with the love of his life Karen, and his last difficult years suffering from Alzheimer’s.
The film opens in Atlanta on March 22 at the Tara Theatre. Ahead of the screening, Rough Draft Atlanta spoke to “Remembering Gene Wilder” writer Glenn Kirschbaum and director Ron Frank about working on the film and keeping Wilder’s legacy alive.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
When was the first time you remember seeing Gene Wilder on screen?
Ron Frank: The first time I saw Gene Wilder on screen, I was 16 years old. He was hanging upside down in a jail cell. I’d never seen him before. I think what attracted me to him was that he had hair out to here, wild uncontrollable hair. I did too as a teenager, and I thought, wow, you know, a guy could make it on the screen looking like that! It gave me some encouragement. And then miraculously, 50 years later exactly, I was working on a film about him. So that was a pretty nice closing of a big circle.
Glenn Kirschbaum: In my case, I grew up as a fan of all the Universal horror films. So I knew “Frankenstein,” I knew “Bride of Frankenstein.” Ron and I were born the same year, so when I was 16, I went to see “Young Frankenstein,” and just fell out of my seat with laughter. Because I knew the scenes – I knew the blind man helping the monster, you know it was a very poignant moment in “Bride of Frankenstein.” And what Mel Brooks did with that scene, with the monster getting the boiling soup in his lap, and having his fingers set on fire, it was just hysterical. And Gene was just magnificent and magical. I fell in love with Gene Wilder then, and felt so privileged to work on this film now.
As far as I understand, this project came about through Gene’s wife Karen wanting to do a story about Gene’s Alzheimer’s at the end of his life, but you both had the idea to expand off of that – I heard there’s an even longer version of this movie, which I would be interested in hearing about. How did you expand on that original nugget of an idea and frame the narrative of this documentary?
Frank: Well, our executive producers – who are great, by the way – are David Knight and Julie Nimoy. It was really both of them that first approached Karen. The Nimoys – Julie being the daughter of Leonard Nimoy – the Nimoys were very close friends with Wilders. I believe it was both Julie and David that approached Karen, this was after Gene died, about doing something of what she went through regarding Alzheimer’s and taking care of Gene at the end of his life.
We thought, that’s an interesting idea, but Glenn and I wanted to do something much more comprehensive, much more celebratory of his life and career. So that was really how this thing came about, and once we got his best friend in film, Mel Brooks, on board, a lot of others came forward and also gave us interviews as well.
Kirschbaum: I think that Ron and I realized that you could still make a film that raised awareness for Alzheimer’s, which is ultimately what we wanted to achieve. But rather than that being our jump-off place, we wanted to structure a film that, as Ron said, celebrated Gene. That viewers will fall in love with Gene all over again, or if this is their first time meeting him – younger crowds, for instance – that they would care about him and then the Alzheimer’s section would be that much more heartfelt, that much more painful.
The people who funded this film were people in pharmaceutical companies, they were people in Alzheimer’s organizations. So they really didn’t give us any notes. The wonderful thing was Ron and I, pretty much, were able to make the film we wanted to make. We’re very proud of it. We’re thrilled that it’s been getting so much wonderful press, and we’re thrilled that it’s coming to Atlanta. We were at the Tara Theater for a film festival a couple of weeks ago, and it’s a beautiful venue. The crowds were so appreciative. I think this is a match made in heaven.
Frank: I will say that had network executives given us notes, we learned a valuable lesson from Mel Brooks, and that is say, “Yes, you’re right. You got it.” And never, ever do anything that they would tell us to do. That was something that Glenn and I took to heart and we use it to this day [laughs].
He was so great – I mean, obviously, he’s Mel Brooks. He had so many great stories. What was the process like, of getting him on board?
Frank: Well, meeting Mel Brooks was something that was the highlight of my career, and the interview was amazing. Ninety-five years old, sharp as a tack. I mean, he just told us wonderful stories. He is the best storyteller. It took a while to get him, because of COVID. We interviewed him at the end of 2020, so COVID was still a factor. But he granted us the interview. At the time, he had just released his autobiography, “All About Me!” He granted us an interview, he said, “I’ll give you half an hour!” And we stayed for over an hour, and only got interrupted by a visit by his doctor [laughs]. So, it was wonderful. He reminisced about Gene. I think once he got into doing that, he felt really compassionate and moved to talk about Gene. It’s still a moving experience for him to reminisce. So it was a wonderful interview.
Kirschbaum: To Mel’s credit, when the film came out, he tweeted how much he loved the film, and that was seen by over 2 million people. When we opened in Los Angeles, he showed up. At 97, he introduced the film. People sitting in the crowd, they just loved seeing Mel. I mean, he’s a living legend. But they were cheering at the opening credits. I mean, we had this crowd right from the get go. We owe Mel a large measure of gratitude. He’s been with us, he’s been supportive. We just opened in New York this weekend, and Mel again tweeted about the film. So he’s an ally.
Personally, when I met him, I was thrilled beyond belief. I had done my homework – I knew he and I had the same doctor. I didn’t think that was the best jump off place, so I started with telling him he was the only performer on the old “Tonight Show” that my mother would let me stay up late to watch. Everyone else, she’d send me to bed.
That’s awesome. He was such a great narrator and voice to have in there. But the other narrator is Gene Wilder himself. I know a lot of that narration was taken from his book, “Kiss Me Like a Stranger: My Search for Love and Art.” I’m interested in the process of writing a documentary in general. How did you go about deciding which passages you wanted to use from that book?
Kirschbaum: I guess I’ll take this one, as the writer. What was important to Gene went into the film. So we would see him on talk shows – on “The Mike Douglas Show,” on “The Dick Cavett Show,” and his autobiography, of course – and there were stories that would come up repeatedly. He would always tell the same story about when he was eight years old, his mother had a heart attack, and her heart specialist said to him, “Don’t upset your mother, you could kill her. Make her laugh.” That was such an important moment in Gene’s life. You know, he bottled up so much, and I think we see that on screen in his various characterizations – Leo Bloom just exploding, going from zero to 100. So in picking and choosing what went into the film, Ron and I would discuss passages – it was a true collaboration – we would discuss film clips. And if something made both of us laugh, it went in there. If something made one of us laugh, but not the other, we would discuss it. It was a joy, because Gene was so open and honest in his autobiography, and certainly the films gave us an abundance of amazing material to play with.
Absolutely. It’s his voice giving the narration – was there ever a discussion of using someone else, or having someone else read it? Or did you know you always wanted to use his voice?
Frank: When we heard and knew that he had recorded an audio book based on “Kiss Me Like a Stranger,” his autobiography, I think that was the goal all along, to have him tell the story in first person. It’s not the most unique technique, but it’s something that we felt really brought us closer to Gene. And I think it brings the audience closer to Gene, having him tell the story. It is his story.
One of the themes we found in the book was the theme of fate, that Gene had this sense of fate. Not always, but it was a theme that came up every so often. His book starts out that way, and we start our movie that way, about which way to walk around the Plaza Hotel fountain in New York City, and how that will change your life. And it did. It changed his life, and there were so many moments. I mean, if Mel did not defend Gene against Joe Levine, who wanted to fire him from “The Producers,” we wouldn’t be talking now. These are all moments of fate that we found throughout his book.
Kirschbaum: If Gene hadn’t met Anne Bancroft, he wouldn’t have met Mel Brooks. If he didn’t make “See No Evil, Hear No Evil,” he wouldn’t have met his wife Karen. And I think by having Gene’s voice, you almost feel like he was in the editing bay making the film with us. I think it’s effective.
Yeah, it makes it very special, to be able to hear his voice again. I wanted to talk to you both about what you think makes Gene Wilder unique as an actor and comedian. Obviously, the first thing I saw him in was “Willy Wonka” as a child, and something that always sat with me – which is why I was so interested in that story you brought up, Glenn, about the doctor who told him not to argue with his mother – is that while he does have an innocence about him, it’s laced with something almost scary. Willy Wonka kind of scared me as a child, and I think that’s on purpose, like there’s an anger bottled up underneath. And I think that’s pretty unique to him as a performer, so I wanted to get a sense from both of you what you find unique about his performing style.
Frank: Well, I would tell you that there was something behind his eyes. You know, they always said his eyes were like Paul Newman eyes. He was very attractive, and I think that was one of the things that Karen was attracted to. But there was a mystery behind his eyes on camera, I always found. And you can see that in Willy Wonka. You don’t know what he’s up to. Peter Ostrum – he was Charlie in “Willy Wonka” – he testified to that. You never knew what Gene was quite up to. There was a mystery, but also a certain love and affection. I think that carried off screen as well, for Gene. He was a very affectionate guy. You were the only person in the room when he talked to you, and he really listened, which a lot of men have problems with [laughs]. I can testify to that. But he did. That’s what Karen explained. His acting ability, as Alan Alda tells us in the film, he made it real. He did not force the humor. He was a comedic actor, not a comedian. So he just played it real, and that made it more funny. He learned that, and that was his MO for acting in comedies.
Kirschbaum:I think he was the everyday man. We could all relate to Gene’s explosiveness. You know, how many of us haven’t been there? Where you just keep things bottled up, and then at some moment, you just let it all out? I think Gene was intelligent. He was thoughtful, and I think he brought that to his roles. He really thought things through. The mere fact that it was his idea that Willy Wonka, when we first meet him, would come out hobbling with a cane and then do a somersault and leap up in the air. Originally, it was written that he would come out jumping and joyous. He didn’t want that. He wanted, right from the start, that you wouldn’t know what to expect from him. That’s a man who knows how to tell a story, and I think that’s part of what made him so unique.
Frank: That would have been a deal breaker, by the way. He told that to Mel Stuart, the director – if that’s not going to go in, he’s not doing the film. So that was very important to him, to make sure that somersault business with the cane was in.
I mean, that’s the thing you remember out of anything from that movie. I’m so glad you brought up the actor who played Charlie, because – I mean, there were a lot of things in this movie I found myself getting pretty emotional over, but one of the things that surprised me was that actor talking about how Gene Wilder treated him as a fellow actor, not as a kid, and supported him in that way. I wanted to ask both of you, were there any moments that struck you like that, or surprised you while you were making this?
Frank: I mean, knowing that he almost got fired from “The Producers,” that was new. We had no idea about that. There were some other things that we did not put in due to time. I would say one of the things is that his acting career really started as a result of his sister, Corinne, who was a few years older. He followed her in acting, and followed her to the University of Iowa, and then followed her to New York. He first saw her in an appearance on stage, and he was swept off his feet by the whole experience of her doing a solo appearance on stage, and the applause and everything. He said that was where he decided this life of acting was for him. I think he felt more free onstage than offstage. He always said it was easier to be on stage than in real life. And that may have had something to do with his upbringing, and you know – don’t make your mother angry. That could have been part of it. You know, Gene had a certain amount of psychoanalysis in his life – we didn’t go into those things.
I always heard about his relationship with Gilda [Radner]. I did not know that it wasn’t the happiest of marriages. It had the appearance of being so, but it wasn’t. And knowing about Karen – I knew nothing about Karen when I first got into this project, and knowing what Karen meant to him in his life, which was everything.
Kirschbaum: I had a surprising moment after we finished the film, and this goes back to Peter Ostrum. He has been traveling with us doing some Q&As after the screenings. We were asked after one of the screenings what our favorite film was, from Gene’s many films. And just so you understand, the role of Charlie was the only role [Peter] ever had. Then he got out of acting, he became a veterinarian and just retired after 40, 50 years. So, when asked what our favorite films were, Ron, I know, loved “The Frisco Kid.” I’m a “Young Frankenstein” guy. And Peter said he liked the scene with the sheep [laughs], I think because he was a veterinarian. That surprised me!
I was surprised! I had never heard of that film [“Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex* (*But Were Afraid to Ask),” in which Gene Wilder’s character falls in love with a sheep]. It made me want to watch it. I heard somewhere that PBS wanted those scenes cut, is that true?
Frank: That’s absolutely true. We felt like saying, okay it’s cut. No sheep. We’re not going to put it in. Of course, we put it in anyway. But yes, they evaluated a version of this, and we had to make it G-rated for them. No beastiality. What else did we have to cut out?
Kirschbaum: There was a litany! They said get rid of “What knockers,” from “Young Frankenstein.” There were scenes – when Richard Pryor and Gene first walked into the prison, I believe the f-word was used, and they said, absolutely get rid of that. You know, anything that could offend anybody, is what we were asked to remove. Quite honestly, we were thrilled that we didn’t go down that path. The film that people will see is the film that we made, and the film that we think captures the essence of who Gene Wilder was.
I’m so glad we got the sheep cut, as it were. You just spoke to this a bit, Ron, about things that were left out or that you didn’t necessarily have enough space to put in, but I wondered, when you’re putting together a film like this, how difficult is it to make those decisions, and what is ultimately the final straw for what you put in and what you don’t?
Frank: God, it’s impossible. Really. I mean, Glenn will testify to that with me. It’s so difficult. There’s so much that ended up on the cutting room floor. We could have made a film about Mel and “The Producers” alone, based on what we did not put in. But you know, I think what we ended up striking was a good balance. The long version, we tested it, and it just didn’t play as well. It was a little too long. Length matters, particularly I think in a documentary. There are tangents and stories that you can go off on, and in this case, we just felt this is what we want to remember from Gene Wilder, hence the title. So that’s what we focused on. There were a lot of other moments that Gene did, but we felt, based on us going back and forth, that this is what we wanted to remember. I mean, Gene had two other marriages prior to Gilda, and it wasn’t really relevant to us. It may have been relevant for some people. But this is what we wanted to focus on and celebrate. I can’t think of anything else dramatic. Can you, Glenn? That we cut out that we really wanted in?
Kirschbaum: No, I think we’re very happy with this film, and the timing could not be any better. I think given the state of the world, we all need laughter, and we certainly wanted to capture the great humor. Some of these films might not even be able to be made today. But this is what we grew up with. So for older folks, there’s a sense of nostalgia. For younger people, it’ll be a wonderful introduction to who Gene was.
Like I said, it brings laughter. I have a 16-year-old son who has now run out and seen every Gene Wilder film, and he had never heard of him when we began this project. It put pressure on Ron and I, because we grew up really admiring Gene. We just wanted to do an amazing job. And I can’t tell you how gratifying it is that the film is now being seen in theaters around the country. It’ll eventually, we hope, have a streaming deal in place. You know, we just wanted to make sure that Gene Wilder was not forgotten to history.